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Kakariki, Care, Breeding, Ecology, and Conservation :: View topic - Breeding Kakarikis in a colony.
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Breeding Kakarikis in a colony.
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Allen
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 10:42 pm    Post subject: Breeding Kakarikis in a colony.



Does any one have any experience with having more than one pair together in one aviary?

I would like to put a 3 or 4 immature pairs in a large aviary together later this year. I still have to build the aviary and any advice, theories or other input would be appreciated.

I plan to put a pair of Golden Pheasants in too. They should not be a problem as they are sharing a 3m by 2m by 2m enclosure with 2 pairs cockatiels, a Red Rump pair, two young female red rumps (3 months old) and two year old male kakarikis. Swopped one for a female so kikes are moving in with females over the week-end. I had a pair of lovebirds in too and they used to try a nd pull out the pheasants feathers for nesting material. Lovebirds attacked the cockatiel babies so I moved the lovebirds out.

I would also like to add to my still to be built large aviary, a pair of tame cockatiels (hand reared), possibly Bourkes, on pair Diamond Doves and posibbly Java Sparrows. I know Bourkes and diamond doves are docile but can't remember if Java Sparrows are aggresive or not? Had some a few years ago and I remeber budgies and Zebra Finches interfering with them.

Any other suggestions for a mixed aviary about 6m bu 4m by 2.5m?
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:59 am    Post subject:

Quote:
Does any one have any experience with having more than one pair together in one aviary?

All I have is
1/a couple yellows breeding with a pair Crimsons in 1.5x 2.2x 2h went ok
2/reds with pair kings , the male red got bit territorial , so removed kings for sake of peace 1.5x 2.5x2.3h
I have seen the above combos, also 2 red pair with very experienced breeder in large octagonal approx 4m diam 3.5 to 3 m h...kikes and kings breed crimsons don't (.clarification combos are lots of 4 birds, not all together.)
Quote:
I would like to put a 3 or 4 immature pairs in a large aviary together later this year. I still have to build the aviary and any advice, theories or other input would be appreciated.

Currently we have 6, males/females from last yr and early this yrs seasons, no nesting boxes 1.5x2.6x1.2h, there are no fights, in fact they are very social, entertaining to watch, pecking order is sorted peacefully...by (i think) placing a foot on the back of the other bird?
I have seen a few more kikes (8 to 10 althu all 1 sex) in a flight 1/2 that size with no problems other than a few more ruffled feathers than usual, when going in with a net to catch one. Similar interaction to our holding flight.
Quote:
They should not be a problem as they are sharing a 3m by 2m by 2m enclosure with 2 pairs cockatiels, a Red Rump pair, two young female red rumps (3 months old) and two year old male kakarikis. Swapped one for a female so kikes are moving in with females over the week-end. I had a pair of lovebirds in too and they used to try a nd pull out the pheasants feathers for nesting material. Lovebirds attacked the cockatiel babies so I moved the lovebirds out.

Red rumps males when ready to breed, lovebirds can get rather aggressive and don't make good mixed community birds...I know of ppl who have had hens in with kikes nps

Years ago I used to have tropical fish tanks, the combos of species where critical to the harmony and survival of fish plants etc etc..some species stayed high others low and in between , others around edges or under cover. Some where just too aggressive .Aviaries are exactly the same.

From experience and research, Kings, Crimsons, Burkes, Kikes, splendid grass,tuquoisine, Chinese painted Quail, hens mix well...some problems may arise if nests are introduced, althu that depends on space and layout.
There maybe others that some members would like to add.
Notice also the list is of the more quieter birds (coincidence??)
Burkes, tuquoisine can a little get stressed thu, being a very quiet bird, and with active kikes on the move often forces them to also be on the move. Again space is an issue.
Even with compatible fish in a tank, the point of crowding is not gradual, it is either ok or unstable.
When mixing birds its best to introduce several, rather than 1 or to to a community to avoid pecking order problems, and do it just on late dusk.

We have also talked about building a large avairay...approx 12x17x6h, covering an area of the gardens, over the pond, orange, fejoa, guava trees and pongas undergrowth etc. see pic..one day signlol



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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 12:32 am    Post subject:

Back to breeding Kikes in a colony....
I know 2 pair or a pair plus another male kike, or pair of Kings in a approx 2.5w x 1.5L x2.5 m h (yes dimentions are correct has the longest side as the front) the other birds get a hard time from the male kike...not a good idea. wall
Also a nesting box close to the next fligh with other birds, and/or kikes the male is not a happy chappy. A part sheet of ply fixes the problem.

As to how big a flight has to be to accomodate 2 pair I would also like to know...

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Allen
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 4:40 am    Post subject:

Yeah, probaly not going to work putting two breeding males together. I have kept three adult males in one aviary (without females) - no fighting and no problems. One escaped once and the first thing he did was go and bicker with one of my breeding males nearby. They were quite agresive through the wire.

Might work if one puts all the birds in together at the same time as youngsters.
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 9:20 am    Post subject:

In anotrher thread I am experimenting with mixed Kikes in colony with no nesting boxes, adding info as time goes on.
Its once a nesting box is added trouble brews.
Any one know just how big the 'nest territory' actually is?
I have established it is larger than 3m

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INDI
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 8:47 pm    Post subject:

Ok so i'm on the wrong thread but i'm looking for where I originally posted however this is still in keeping with this thread topic.

Today I went and picked up my cinnamon hen which will now give me 2 pair in the aviary, originally the pick up point was to be my friends place that has the 8 Kakarikis in the one aviary that someone queried me about, I was going to check out the size of the aviary etc however the pick up point was changed and surprise surprise these people had Kaks - yep they had 5 red fronts (2 pr + 1 spare duno what) in an aviary that was 6ft x 6ft square made of zincalume and also there was a couple of budgies in there too - these Kakarikis have breed numerous times and today I was able to witness these to tell you there was indeed 3 week old baby kakarikis in the nest boxes so I guess it goes to show that Kakarikis can and will breed in a colonly situation.

Just thought I'd update and if I can find the thread i'm actually suppose to be positing on i'll do it there too.

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Kaka-riki
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 1:34 am    Post subject:

The biggest issue with colony breeding is keeping track of the young birds. It is highly likely that the pair you think is responsible for the young in the nest are not the parents at all. If you have more than one cock bird in the aviary you can never be sure of which one is actually the dad.
This is because a hen is not that fussy about who she mates with. Cock birds likewise are always keen to please. We recently ran an experiment where by we left a young cock bird in the breeding flight with mum and dad. As there was a second clutch of eggs we were concerned that the young cock bird may be injured by the adult cock bird. It was in fact the hen who became aggressive toward her young son when she came out to feed. That all changed when we noticed both cock birds feeding the hen as the chicks grew older. The young cock continued to feed the young when they fledged as well.
The other consideration should always be bloodlines and mutations. If you are not certain who the parents of a particular clutch are then it would be very easy to start inbreeding. You may know which hen is responsible but I dont think you could be 100% certain on the father. If you have several mutations in a mixed collection it would be very difficult to sell "splits" as once again you could not be certain of the parentage.
In regard to the Aussie Neophemas, most breeders here dont run them in mixed collections with Kakariki due to the aggressive behaviour of the Kakariki cock birds. The exception to that is the Bourkes parrot. The Bourke seems to be a lot more tolerant and doesn't stress at the same levels as the other small parrots. The larger King, Crimson Wing and Princess parrots are better mixed aviary tenants when introducing Kakariki. Cattscapes (another member of this site) has successfully placed Kakariki in a mixed collection with mutation Eastern Rosellas. Maybe he can supply some additional comments.
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INDI
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 2:37 am    Post subject:

Hi, I know that the friends who have the 8 Kakarikis in the 1 aviary are only breeding them to handrear the young.

I really can only comment 100% on my own situation and that is I ring all young birds that I breed and keep records, I also breed to handrear and so I do not keep any young.

As Tasmania is such a small place and it's highly probable in the chance that birds are all related down here, the cinnamon hen I got today actually came across from the mainland.

Because I now have 4 birds made up of 1 green cock, 1 cinnamon cock and 2 cinnamon hens it's going to be quite easy for me to know who is the father of a clutch as I will only get cinnamons from 2 cinnamon parents, if I happen to find green birds then I know that the green is the father, all young will be visually green but the young hens from that nest will be split to cinnamon but as I mentioned I ring young birds in the nest and keep breeding records.

I run a mixed aviary and in with the Kakarikis is whiteface cockatiels, princess parrots, red fronted scarlets and I used to also have rosa bourkes but have since sold them.

When I was living back in NSW 12 months ago I had more space and was better set up as far as aviary numbers go but needless to say I have always had a large mixed aviary.

It is interesting to hear everyone's point of view tho' but every situation or reason for breeding is different. I will be keeping an extra close eye to make sure there is no signs of agression o fighting and if there is I will have to accommodate 1 pair elsewhere ( duno where right at this moment) but I wouldn't let anything intentionally happen.

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Kaka-riki
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:33 am    Post subject:

Indi,
For info the cinnamon mutation in Kakariki is a sex linked mutation and as such you cant have "split" hens. Only cock birds can be split for cinnamon.
Providing your normal cock bird is NOT split for cinnamon when paired to a cinnamon hen you will produce 100% normal/split cinnamon cock birds and 100% normal hens.
This does highlight the dangers of mixed mutation collections unless the breeder is very certain of the bloodlines. Perhaps you could trace the origin of the normal cock bird to check whether he is "split" cinnamon.
This would give you a better idea of what young could be bred when placing the 2 pairs in a mixed collection.
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 9:46 am    Post subject:

Quote:
This is because a hen is not that fussy about who she mates with. Cock birds likewise are always keen to please. We recently ran an experiment where by we left a young cock bird in the breeding flight with mum and dad. As there was a second clutch of eggs we were concerned that the young cock bird may be injured by the adult cock bird. It was in fact the hen who became aggressive toward her young son when she came out to feed. That all changed when we noticed both cock birds feeding the hen as the chicks grew older. The young cock continued to feed the young when they fledged as well.

I will confirm such behavour...and also, this behaviour does not mean that the flight will not be stressed and have aggression in the form of intimidation rather than attack as is the case with Red rumps
Our Breeding and colony flights are in direct line of of our living room, they are 4 m from our Dinning room Table (note the TABLE) less than 2 m from where sit on the deck and have coffee, entertain friends. 8 m from my Office and place of employment. And similar distance from our lounge where we can observe day and night. During night hrs there are green halogen lights that also make this time observed.
We have come to recognise also what the different calls Kakariki make, when and y.
So unlike most breeders, we live With our aviary birds... 24/7.
Quote:
I was able to witness these to tell you there was indeed 3 week old baby kakariki in the nest boxes so I guess it goes to show that Kakariki can and will breed in a colonly situation.


I do not say they will not breed, they will breed... the aviary will be stressed. This is the original point, not as to whether they will breed.
Quote:
yep they had 5 red fronts (2 pr + 1 spare what) in an aviary that was 6ft x 6ft square made of zincalume and also there was a couple of budgies in there too

This IS small, Too small. I for one place a great value on the quality of live our birds have. Our birds are living creatures and deserve such consideration. I to have seen many aviaries, often setup as over sized 'battery' production lines, with no consideration to anything but producing young.
Other species (eg Red rumps)that actually get aggressive and attack doing damage to other birds are considered to to be not able to breed in mixed flights. Just because Kakariki intimidate does not mean they should be classified any different...Thats If one REALLY does care about their birds peace of mind AND body.
If u are going to breed in mixed flights with Kakariki boxes..Make sure u have spare flights/aviaries and facilities available to to move birds around before starting. 3 times we have had to build, very quickly, new aviaries/flights/extensions to them in a big hurry just to eliminate stress.

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INDI
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 1:49 pm    Post subject:

OK coupla things -

:oops: typo in my post last night 'cos I did it late and was tired - sorry, yes about the split to cinnamons and YES I do know exactly where the green cock bird came from and also that the breeder only had the 1 pair of Kakarikis - both red fronted greens and he was able to tell me from where HE had purchased his stock from so in that regard I did my homework.

The comment by Step on the size of the aviary - YES I totally agree it is waaaaaaay too small but then that is NOT my aviary so nothing I can do about, it's working for them so I can only tell you as I saw it.

Not sure why the 'red rumps' got brought into tho' duno

Just an update, all kakarikis are fine this morning out in the aviary - the first cinnamon hen is in her box with the cock keeping an eye on her, the new hen is sitting out in the flight and the cinnamon cock is rummaging around the floor - i will be outside working all day near the aviaries so will be able to osbserve and keep an eye on things.

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Cattscapes
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 12:03 am    Post subject: Breeding Kakarikis in a colony.

Hi Guys up until recently i had some individual pairs with Eastern Rosella pairs ( due to too many birds not enough aviaries) all was going well until the Kakarikis started to breed a which time the cock desided to drop the eastern cock to the ground on quite a few times. This was very destressing for the Eastern cock so that mixing ended very quickly. I have also seen the same happen with a Australian King Parrot Cock and he was 4 times the size of the Kakariki. But breeding them in colony i have had no luck in the past so all my aviaries are now designed for single pairs. In saying that i had to swap a pair around today because i had a cock in one cage feeding and trying to mate with a hen in the cage beside him. Suppose you could call that colony breeding. Cheers Kevin
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INDI
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:53 am    Post subject:

I've been super busy for the past fortnight and haven't been here but thought I'd drop in and just give an update on how my 2 pair are doing in a mixed situation - all is still going great with no problems, my first cinnamon hen is sitting tight on a clutch of eggs and the 2nd cinnamon hen I got a few weeks back is being wooed by the other cinnamon male.

The people that had the 2 pair + 1 spare bird in the "waaay too small" aviary have done well, they had 6 young fledge from one nest and 3 so far from the other.

Guess I still have to go along with the saying 'what works for one doesn't necessarily work for everyone' and so in their case and hopefully mine all kikes are happy kikes in a mixed colony situation.

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Kaka-riki
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 1:14 pm    Post subject:

Indi,
Your post highlights the sad plight of the Kakariki as an aviary bird. It is the main reason I REFUSE to sell birds unless I know the new owners are going to treat these parrots with the respect they deserve. How any respectable breeders (who has any consideration for their birds) would allow that many young plus breeding pairs into an aviary that size is beyond me. It seems the old saying amongst breeders that Kakariki are like "chooks" has rubbed off onto some people.
There are yells of protests at the way chickens are treated. Small cages and constantly laying eggs. But, honestly what is the difference between that situation and what your friend is doing. It is little wonder the "greenies" are turning their attention toward aviculturists and building a damm good case against us in keeping birds of any knid.
I see no reason at all to be promoting "colony" breeding of a species when I have no doubt there is not a happy bird in that situation. Sure birds will breed because it is in their nature. It is what they do. But, humans also breed with little thought of the consequences. So the birds are not to be blamed for their actions.
This post is not a personal attack on Indi. I am just saddened that so many people believe keeping birds is a right and not a privelige. There are too many people keeping birds ( I refuse to acknowledge them as breeders) who simply want to boast about their achievements and rake in the dollars with NO thought for the birds at all.
I recently had a phone call from a young lad in Queensland looking for a normal pair of Red fronted Kakariki. I sent him a pair and when they arrived he was shocked at the size of the birds. They are way larger than anything he has ever seen before. Yet, they are true to size. Sadly, a lot of people will thrash their birds to breed continually and dont give a damm about fertility and size. I would be interested to know how fit and healthy the nine chicks will be later on in life. To keep enough fruit, veg and soft food up to that many chicks would require a minimum of 3 feeds a day.
Kakariki are an endangered species in their native homeland. I think it is time the members of this site started looking at their own breeding situations and made a "BIG" effort in educating others on how to look after this little parrot in the hope that one day we will be able to return some birds to New Zealand and see them released. That will never happen if the authorities are given the chance to knock it on the head.
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 4:51 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
This post is not a personal attack on Indi.

Indi does bring to the front a subject only touched on in these forms.
In my mind the above post of Kak-rki is spot on.
Im glad he posted it...
I read and was going to post earlier today, and refrained simply because I was going to post in a manner far more blunt than his.
This subject is not just kakariki but All species, including dogs, cats.

There are many good responsible breeders
There are FAR too many irresponsible breeders....
In the end the latter are going to screw it up for us and they NEED to be closed down.

In NZ one can only have 2 kakariki in a flight approx 3.5x 1.2x 2.4 h
Thats 5 cubic m /bird.

I have been experimenting with colony of kakariki in a couple of flights over the last yr (no nesting boxes) as to what point over crowding takes place.

A flight as described above Will house 7 Kakariki , with enough flying room.
Thats 1.5 cubic m/bird
It requires a
15 l water trough changed EVERY day.
Feeding 2 to 3 times a day morning and evening with fresh veggies, and supplement of a midday 3rd feed every 2nd day of fresh fruit Minimum.

A flight 5.5x 1.5x 2.4h will hold 15 kakariki 1.32 cubic m /bird
and requires
2x 15 l water troughs, changed every day
Fresh veggies and fruits as above.

The smaller the flight the larger the cubic m/bird is required

The flight described above by Indi is 2mx2m and assumed to be 2m h
That is NOT enough room to fly freely
That is just over 0.5 cubic M/bird !!!!!
They should have at least 2.5 cubic M/bird ...thats a max of 3 (maybe 4) birds, and that is with NO nesting boxes....
Bottom line Indi...I wouldn't ever get a bird off someone who does that, friend or not. They ARE ABUSING their kakariki, AND they would loose my friendship. They need to be closed down because they, as Kaka-riki says
Quote:
It is little wonder the "greenies" are turning their attention toward aviculturists and building a damn good case against us in keeping birds of any kind.

Quote:
......if the authorities are given the chance to knock it on the head.

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